Another cracking mission! (Air Superiority)

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Re: Another cracking mission!

Postby Pod » Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:36 am

SYN_Vander wrote:In the current mission there is already a supply line for artillery.


Ah right, those are the messages about the forward units that have been supplied?

SYN_Vander wrote:This could be extended to tanks as well, although in reality tanks would be brought up to the line before starting any attack. I think we should try to simulate tactical warfare, not a war of attrition. So attacking a supply line should slow things down only. Attacking factories should not affect the outcome of a well prepared attack?


I think you are right, this make more sense.
I actually meant it would be possible to get the factory up and running again, but only if the supply lines are covered and the supplies reach the factories. However that might only work in a multi-mission scenario and not indeed in a single mission with a prepared attack as you describe.

SYN_Vander wrote:Which bombing objective would/should have the most effect apart from the primary objectives (fortifications)? I'm thinking destroying an ammo dump or an airfield. When an airfield is destroyed it's not that hard to shut the airfield down or decrease number of planes, but we shouldn't prevent players from flying at all! So there should at least be one airfield, further back, that is always open.


When I'm flying this mission as an artillery observer, I get sweaty hands from having to stay over the target area. If the time needed to destroy the lines is increased, I'm sure the tension will rise. So if it would be possible to slow down an attack because of destroyed ammo dumps it would be a very nice addition.

Closing airfields might have a reverse effect on the people flying online.
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Re: Another cracking mission!

Postby Waxworks » Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:45 pm

The obvious historical attack and counterattack scenario is Cambrai, though the following phase of the war was a grand attack/counterattack.

It isn't historical for the Germans to use tanks, they preferred to use low flying aeroplanes in the ground support role because tanks were not flexible enough and could not exploit success. Even during Entente attacks, if you had AT guns as well as strongpoints there would be tactical opportunities to support the attack. I would use recces and contact patrols as well, I've been wondering if the recce logic can be adapted for contact patrols. Will the recces definitely not function with moving targets? I've encountered posts stating this but I'm not sure whether I've tried it.

I have scoffed at tactical factory attacks before, but I'm ready to do so again! Most of the factories in the Cambrai sector were sugar beet factories, there was a brickworks. Arras has that chemical works... There was no tactical bombing of factories to stop production at all, though they were locations for dumps, artillery and reserves.

If the sides will take turns attacking, I'm not sure why you don't use the artillery spotter logic, it would even work best with no recces..? Just flying around for a while isn't as much fun, and it requires an honour system to avoid hiding in clouds.
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Re: Another cracking mission!

Postby SYN_Vander » Tue Jan 07, 2014 9:42 pm

Next step is to add some soldiers running from line to line! :grin:



A bit wooden still, but maybe good enough for a flight sim ;)
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Re: Another cracking mission!

Postby Pod » Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:24 pm

Wow, that looks very nice :eek:
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Re: Another cracking mission!

Postby SYN_Bandy » Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:27 pm

SYN_Vander wrote:Next step is to add some soldiers running from line to line! :grin:
...
A bit wooden still, but maybe good enough for a flight sim ;)

:shock: How many??? Not meaning to sound bloodthirsty, but do they have a damage model, aka affected by MG's? Can this work?

The horse is simply fabulous! :eek: Calvary charges anyone? :grin:
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Re: Another cracking mission!

Postby SYN_Vander » Wed Jan 08, 2014 9:24 am

My plan is to create a "vehicle" object that consists of a number of these soldiers, maybe a small platoon of 6-8 guys? Then if I put 6 of these vehicles in a scattered formation we'll have 36-48 guys running across a field. Not really typical WW1 scale of operations, but should look better then nothing!

I have to tune the animation still (rotate the arms as well) and make sure not all soldiers goose step in exactly the same way.
The soldiers are more eye candy than actual targets, so if you shoot them there will not be an actual damage model, but they will simply disappear. I haven't figured out yet if I can have a "damage model" for each individual soldier or if I can have only one per "vehicle" which would mean if you shoot them they will all disappear at the same time.

My idea is to have these little guys run from trench line to trench line, mixed in among the tanks. From the cockpit you will probably hardly notice them at all, but maybe the movement will make them stand out a little more...

btw, the horses are already in the game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOE28Ub96eY but yeah, a cavalry charge would be nice!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKUdxkaDoNo
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Re: Another cracking mission!

Postby SYN_Bandy » Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:12 pm

RE: small platoon. Being Devil's advocate here only, I want to see this happen as much as anybody.

BUT how would uneven ground affect how each soldier "walks" across the mud? What I mean is, yes I understand one game 'object' is composed of many soldiers for performance, but on uneven ground some would be in the air while others walk through the mud up to their chest (maybe not entirely a-historical :grin: ). This is one of the reasons why I stopped working on the cows; placement of a multiple independent component object on uneven terrain, in this case the herd.

Now, some soldiers walking in the air just a little bit likely can not be seen, and likewise, some walking in the mud up to their knees may not be a visual problem. We'll have to wait and see.

RE: Damage model. strafing ground targets usually results in a wide spread of bullets anyways, so having a small platoon of men disappear from one hit is not much of an issue as I see it. Others may argue, screw them :wink:

RE: Being able to see them.
Other than a possible performance hit, being able to actually see them will likely be the issue more than anything else. Unless you are really down low (which we are trying to encourage players NOT to do, right?) it will be nearly impossible. The only suggestion I can come up with is to make the uniforms lighter in colour than normal to provide a bit of contrast with darker background. Maybe apply 'dried mud' over much of the uniform, especially the moving parts legs & arms to stand out more. You know how dried mud is lighter in colour? That will help some.

Also, seeing them would likely be a function of how many can be placed on the battlefield. The more the better of course, just have to wait and see how it affects the performance. Thousands would be perfect. :cool:

As the mission is designed now, there is no reason for aircraft to be down low, other than occasional escape across NML after a dogfight. Of course both sides used low level ground attack during assaults, so time to break with convention in this instance? Let the Halberstadt CLII do its job!
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Re: Another cracking mission!

Postby SYN_Vander » Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:21 pm

Yes, the issue with uneven terrain and the fact they will probably disappear all at once is the reason there will be a practical limit in the number of soldiers in a platoon (vehicle). It will take some testing to see what works best.

About those cows: If you plan to make static cows than it's not a problem to create a cluster of cows in one object. You can still have each cow as a separate object within the "block" and it will align itself to the terrain independent of the other cows.

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Re: Another cracking mission!

Postby Waxworks » Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:56 pm

Cavalry charges might be slightly obscure, while the men would be brilliant additions. A damage model might not be essential, what you want is to ensure that a strafing mission has a visual reference and is carried out, not count up individual hits on soldiers. If we have soldiers perhaps we also have more realistic targets for Cooper bombs?

6-8 guys is a squad not a platoon! I always wanted to test the limits for tank deployment and never have, but surely it will be easier to have these squads with no DM or fire ability, than tanks with their several guns and MGS?
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Re: Another cracking mission!

Postby SYN_Kollwitz » Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:16 pm

Brilliant work as always!!!

You might want to check the soldiers (damage models etc) with Jason... The game rating may become void if soldiers are added, and that will get him into trouble with distributors as steam. Just a heads up ;)
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